Q: Is the BPCPA only for B.C. residents?

Yes, but each province has their own office of consumer protection. So simply substitute your province's consumer protection for the BPCPA in the process. The laws that govern collection agencies are federal. All provinces are subject to the same collection agency practices act. The most important element of which is the clause that states that they cannot call you if you communicate that request in writing.

Is the BPCPA only for B.C. residents?

hi..

im confused. who would make the car loan agreement? give some ideas please..

My argument against fractional reserve banking applies to loans where the money for the loan is created after the fact out of thin air by monetizing the applicant's signed promissory note and selling it to a third party on the private market - this is the case with credit card loans, student loans, and in the U.S., mortgages.

Here is a link to the decision by a Minessota judge in 1968, ruling against fractional reserve banking whereby money for loans is created out of thin air (as we also do in Canada). Click on Judgment and Decree:

http://www.lawlibrary.state.mn.us/CreditRiver/CreditRiver.html

can this work with a car loan company
they tried to repo my car today

Oh my god! Not YOU!

I've seen your "the money never existed therefore I don't owe it" argument elsewhere...

Good luck with that.

Really.

In regards to your second question re: sueing for harrassment:

I believe the BPCPA agent would have refered me to such a law if there was one. I certainly let them know I was willing to file a claim against the CA. Perhaps call the BPCPA. They are helpful and will answer your questions.

Hello JacTrac84,

I haven't learned of anything so far in Canada that requires the CA to remove the tradeline from the credit report.

Hi JohnDoe,

I know that if you DV a CA in the States (and they have no proof of your debt or they don't respond in 30 days), that you can have the Tradeline removed from your Credit Report...Do the same rules hold for Canada?

Also, in the States, if a CA keeps contacting you by phone, even though you have told them not to, you can sue them for $1000 for harassment (as well as other infractions)...Is this also true for Canadians?

Thanks for posting a Canadian version of the DV process ...Very helpful!!

Jac

Hello,

I am a dual US/Canadian citizen. I have successfully applied the US debt validation process using Section 809b of the FDCPA as outlined at this website:

http://www.creditinfocenter.com/rebuild/debt_validation.shtml

Knowing of the US debt validation process, I looked for something similar in Canada. What I found is the Collection Agencies Act and the Business Practices and Consumer Protection Authority (this is for B.C. Each province has it's own consumer protection agency. In the following process, simply substitute your province's consumer protection agency for the BPCPA). The Collection Agencies Act http://www.consumerbadcreditguide.com/collectionrightscanada.html defines what Collection agencies in Canada are allowed to do and not do and the BPCPA http://www.consumerprotectionbc.ca/) enforces it. Using these two together has an effect similar to section 809b of the Fair Debt Collection Practices Act (FDCPA) in the US. Similar because, unlike the FDCPA, the Collection Agencies Act does not provide the consumer with the right to have the offending trade line removed from your credit report. The process I describe below will only neutralize the fear and intimidation that is the collection agency's weapon. It won't save your credit rating.

The following process will shut down a Canadian third party collection agency's attempt to collect on an unsecured debt such as a credit card debt or student loan and is predicated on two important clauses of the Collection Agencies Act.

The first states that a collection agency is required to first send you a formal letter before contacting you by phone:

No [collection agency] shall:

attempt to collect payment of a debt from a debtor until the debtor has been notified by means of a private written communication, or a reasonable attempt has been made to notify the debtor by means of a private written communication, of the name of the creditor with whom the debt was incurred, the balance owing on the account, and the identity and authority of the person making the demand in respect of the collection of the debt

The second states that a collection agency must communicate with you in writing only if you send them a written communication to that effect:

No [collection agency] shall continue to communicate with a debtor:

other than in writing, when the debtor has notified the [collection agency]in writing to communicate in writing only and has provided an address at which the debtor may be contacted.

They are not allowed to call you if you have sent them this request in writing. If you accompany this request with a letter disputing the validity of their claim, it is a powerful blow to the collection agency.

Collection agencies know their claim will not stand up in court if the debtor requires them to provide proof that they own the debt. Thus if you are disputing their claim, their only way of getting you to pay is to harrass you over the phone. If they can't do that, they have no recourse, except to file a claim and hope you will ignore it, allowing them to get a default judgement against you and then garnish your wages. However, if you have let them know that you will be disputing their claim and requesting verification of it by requiring them to produce the original loan agreement (which is impossible since it has been sold as a negotiable debt instrument on the private market) they seem not to pursue the matter.

Also, it's important to know that a third party collection agency only pays the original creditor a small percentage (7-10% I've heard) of the face value of the debt for the right to collect on it. So, if the face value of the debt is $5000, they're in it for maybe $500 or less. If they can trick you into paying the full amount, they make a substantial profit. But if you dispute the validity etc. it's not worth their time.

I have applied this approach to three Canadian third party collection agencies so far. And all for the same debt, which is interesting - it suggests that if a third party agency can't collect from you, they simply sell the 'non-performing account' to another third party collection agency and so on down the line. I have received no further claims or communication from any of them.

Here's some background reading which describes how collection agencies really work. These facts are the basis for my rejection of the third party collection process:

http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?read=27104
http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/archive.cgi?read=27104

My claim was less than $10,000 and therefore would be a small claims court issue, but it may work for greater amounts. Keep in mind, this only stops the calls. It doesn't remove the trade line from your credit rating report.

Here's the process I followed:

1. Send a letter by registered mail (or fax with confirmation) requesting that all communication regarding this debt be completed in writing only (you must give them your mailing address). According to Consumer Protection BC, this letter must contain only the request for 'in writing only' - nothing else - otherwise the collection agency may ignore your request.

It is crucial that you keep a record of proof that they received this - in the form of 'advice of receipt' from Canada Post, or a fax confirmation page - so that if they keep calling you can report them to the consumer protection agency with proof.

2. Send a second letter stating that you dispute the validity of their claim and require "Proof that the original debt has been assigned to the agency", "A complete history of the debt beginning with the original creditor" and "A copy of the original loan agreement".

(If you receive a call from a collection agency, but you have not yet received a formal letter from them, cut the caller short by telling them that you have not received anything in writing from them and request that they do so before you go any further. They are required by the Collection Agencies Act to provide you with a claim in writing before beginning their telephone-call harrassment campaign. They will ask for your address info which you will give them. Having done so, ignore any further entreaties from them and simply state something to the effect of, "I will continue our communication once I have received something in writing from you, thank you.", and hang up. Never speak to the collection agency over the phone unless you absolutely have to. This is your right even though they will try to make you feel irresponsible for not answering their calls).

3. The Collection agency may keep calling you even after receiving your letter. This is because they know this is the only way they can get you to pay once you have disputed the validity of their claim. As soon as you receive proof from Canada Post that your letter has been signed for and received, perhaps give them 10 days to stop calling (this is my own arbitrary time frame), then ...

4. If/when they continue to call despite your request, you file a claim with the BPCPA (or your province's equivalent consumer protection agency - look on your province’s CPA website for the process for filing a claim against a collection agency. The consumer protection agency is on your side, they will be friendly and helpful. If the collection agency is still calling you, you have a valid claim according to consumer protection laws and it is their job to enforce it). This simply involves explaining the situation in writing to the CPA and including your documentation of your registered mailing and a copy of the advice of receipt from Canada Post.

5. The Consumer Protection Agency (CPA) will get back to you (or you can call them to see if they've received your complaint) and you will explain that you requested communication in writing only, but that the collection agency is ignoring your request. The CPA agent will give you a contact person they have with the collection agency (collection agencies in Canada have to be registered with the CPA, if they're not, they are not above board).

6. You phone this CPA contact person (not the agent who has been calling you previously) at the collection agency and tell them the CPA referred you to them and that they are not adhering to the legislation so if calls continue you will be filing a formal complaint with the CPA. At this point the calls stop.

Now you would think that the agency would then file a claim against you hoping to eventually garnish your wages, however they did not do this in my experience. I suspect this is due to my letter of dispute and request for validation. They know that I would file a counter-claim against them disputing the validity of the original debt etc. Keep in mind that collection agencies purchase the “non-performing account” from the original creditor for 7 – 10% of its face value. If the face value of the debt is, e.g., $5000, they're in it for probably $500 or less. Is it worth their time (money) to go to court?

[And just as an aside, how is that banks are allowed to sell your loan agreement on the private market and at the same time continue to collect monthly payments from you in the first place? If they have sold the loan agreement on the private market then presumably they no longer own the debt - whomever purchased it from them owns the debt. And then on what basis does a bank empower a collection agency, months or years down the road after the consumer defaults on the loan, to collect on that debt if they no longer own the debt or have the original loan document in their possession?

In addition to selling the loan as a negotiable debt instrument on the private market and continuing to collect payments from you even after they no longer own the debt, fractional reserve banking rules allow a bank to use bookkeeping entry to create money out of thin air by placing the amount of your loan in the 'asset' column of their ledger rather than the liability column, where it should be.

When you sign that piece of paper (the loan agreement/promissory note) it belongs to you. It's value comes from your signature - your promise to pay - your value as an earner - your human potential. It has a monetary value and its value comes from you. It is yours until someone buys it off you.

But the bank is not buying it from you. They are taking it from you and entering it into their ledge as an asset (i.e. something THEY own). This of course magically increases the value of their books by whatever the loan is worth. And having thus created money out of thin air, they are now able to give you a loan (and make no mistake, this is how banks make their money. Why do you think their ads are always about loans and credit cards?) If it were a fair transaction, the bank would first pay you cash (or some equivalent) for the loan, THEN add it their books as an asset. It is sleight of hand, and to me it is wrong.

I would like to hear from others on this site who may know more about fractional reserve banking and why it is considered acceptable practice].

If the agency does file a claim against you (hoping that you will ignore it so they can get a default judgement and garnish your wages), file a counter-claim within 14 days disputing the validity of the debt and requiring them to provide proof of its validity by producing the original loan agreement.

But again, in my experience, it does not go this far. The collection agency simply sells the non-performing account to the next collection agency. I suspect this is because they are in it for only a few hundred dollars and, knowing I will make a counter-claim, it is better business to sell the account to another collection agency.

Don't be afraid of going to court. The worst that could happen is you are asked to attend a settlement meeting whereupon you could offer to pay them the amount they paid the original creditor, i.e. 7-10% of the face value of the debt.

We tend to be afraid of the idea of going to court, but if you look into it, it's not so bad. In fact it's good. You have every right to dispute a party's claim. It's not personal. You are simply putting the ball in the other player's court (this, if you haven't noticed, seems to be the aim of legal professionals involved in a dispute). Using the court system is fun and empowering when you learn its processes and that you have legal footing. Go to your local small claims court. They give out pamphlets designed for the layman on how to handle legal claims. They are on your side.

In dealing with collection agencies, the best defense is a good offence.