The trouble is when you start writing them faxes and letters, you may well be acknowledging the debt each time and renewing the SOL period, so be careful how you word it.

The fact that they are always threatening to take you to court but haven't done so is a good sign. It probably means they don't have the creditor's permission. In any event, with the passage of a little more time, you will be more certain.

Ray

Thanks for your advice. I have chosen to use fax as my preferred mode of communication with them, since all they try to do on the phone is intimidate me, and still threaten to take me to court. I am truly amazed that they haven't tried to call me even though I said the only contact would be through fax or registered mail.

I'll let you know what happens if anything, but thanks again.

500 bucks a month on a $8000 debt? That's very generous and probably more than they would get from you in Small Claims Court. After all, the minimum payment on the card before it went into default would've been something like $150 a month.

There are 2 issues here. One important and the other not so important. The important issue is to consider what your creditor can or may do to you. The not so important one that "Advocate" and everyone else on this forum goes on chirping about: how to deal with the collection agencies' harassment. I put it in the plural, because for a debt of that amount, they may well rotate it to a half a dozen or more agencies if you don't pay them.

So unless you want to get writer's cramp from writing letters, it might be preferable to deal with them over the phone. At least, if it were me, I would want them to deal with me directly; that way I know what's going on. As well, it takes very little work to get a collection agency to stop harassing you by giving them back what they gave you.

But I want to keep to what's important for now. I can't tell you whether or not the original creditor will sue you, but you will soon know. That's because, if they are going to, they won't let it drag on very much longer. Besides, in Ontario they only have 2 years to file a statement of claim from the date of default on the credit card. What is that date? Some bill collectors have advised it's when you go R9 on the debt or 6 months. However, if you miss 3 consecutive payments, they will send you a notice telling you your card is cancelled. So 90 days would probably be the most likely time the limitation period would start running. By the way, that notice is very important; KEEP IT! And keep the last few account statements you received also.

A lot of the major banks like TD and BMO generally don't sue people for amounts under 10K as a matter of internal policy. They just rotate the account to an endless series of collection agencies to nag you into submission - it's all they know.

In other cases, the creditor will take into consideration what assets and income you have in judging whether or not it's worth suing you. If you check out the Ontario PPSA (Personal Property Security Act), you will almost surely find they have done at least one search on you there as well as several credit bureau checks.

Since I don't know who the creditor is or what your financial situation is like, I can only take an educated guess as to what you should do.

1. I don't think they will sue you as they probably would have told the collection agency to do it by now. As I said, if they don't do it soon, they won't do it at all - although they may have up to 21 more months to do so (if your last payment was only 6 months ago).

2. Your offer of $500 amonth is very generous. I wouldn't have offered them that much, and even then, I would have demanded a "no interest while not in default" clause. Any second rate credit proposal/settlement outfit could get you that. If you decide to settle, you might consider offering them 50%, payable in monthly installments. They'll turn it down at first because they are pathological liars but almost certainly will be more amenable to accepting it later.

It should be pointed out though that collection agencies are famous for getting people to sign bogus/misleading settlement agreements. They do that to renew limitation periods and sell off the remaining balance to another agency after the debtor thinks he has settled it by paying 50%.

At the very worst, if they didn't accept any offer from you, their only recourse would be to take you to court where there is a mandatory pre-trial settlement conference. Even if that failed and it went to trial and they got a judgement against you, the settlement terms ordered by a judge (if you explained you were in difficult circumstances), might well be very low. Maybe 25 bucks a month. All of a sudden that $250 or $500, you were offering them would look mighty good. So as you can see you've got nothing to lose and lots to gain, especially since your credit report won't get any worse for the next five and-a-half years.

Ray

Edit error, Post not going through and Edit button disappeared.

500 bucks a month on a $8000 debt? That's very generous and probably more than they would get from you in Small Claims Court. After all, the minimum payment on the card before it went into default would've been something like $150 bucks a month.

There are 2 issues here. One important and the other not so important. The important issue is to consider what your creditor can or may do to you. The not so important one that "Advocate" and everyone else on this forum goes on chirping about: how to deal with the collection agencies' harassment. I put it in the plural, because for a debt of that amount, they may well rotate it to a half a dozen or more agencies if you don't pay them.

So unless you want to get writer's
cramp from writing letters, it might be preferable to deal with them over the phone.
At least, if it were me, I would want them to deal with me directly; that way I know what's going on. As well, it takes very little work to get a collection agency to stop harassing you by giving them back what they gave you.

But I want to keep to what's important for now. I can't tell you whether or not the original creditor will sue you, but you will soon know. That's because, if they are going to, they won't let it drag on very much longer. Besides, in Ontario they only have 2 years to file a statement of claim from the date of default on the credit card. What is that date? Some bill collectors have advised it's when you go R9 on the debt or 6 months. However, if you miss 3 consecutive payments, they will send you a notice telling you your card is cancelled. So 90 days would probably be the most likely time the limitation period would start running. By the way, that notice is very important; KEEP IT! And keep the last few account statements you received also.

A lot of the major banks like TD and BMO generally don't sue people for amounts under 10K as a matter of internal policy. They just rotate the account to an endless series of collection agencies to nag you into submission - it's all they know.

In other cases, the creditor will take into consideration what assets and income you have in judging whether or not it's worth suing you. If you check out the Ontario PPSA (Personal Property Security Act), you will almost surely find they have done at least one search on you there as well as several credit bureau checks.

Since I don't know who the creditor is or what your financial situation is like, I can only take an educated guess as to what you should do.

1. I don't think they will sue you as they probably would have told the collection agency to do it by now. As i said, if they don't do it soon they won't do it at all - although they may have up to 21 more months to do so (if your last payment was only 6 months ago).

2. Your offer of $500 amonth is very generous. I wouldn't have offered them that much, and even then, I would have demanded a "no interest while not in default" clause. Even a second rate credit proposal outfit could get you that. If you decide to settle, you might consider offering them 50%, payable in monthly installments. They'll turn it down at first because they are pathological liars but likely will be more amenable to accepting it later.

It should be pointed out though that collection agencies are famous for getting people to sign bogus/misleading settlement agreements. They do that to renew limitation periods and sell off the remaining balance to another agency after the debtor thinks he has settled it by paying 50%.

At the very worst, if they didn't accept any offer from you, their only recourse would be to take you to court where there is a mandatory pre-trial settlement conference. Even if that failed and it went to trial and they got a judgement against you, the settlement terms ordered by a judge (if you explained you were in difficult circumstances), might well be very low. Maybe 25 bucks a month. All of a sudden that $250 or $500, you were offering them would look mighty good. So as you can see you've got nothing to lose and lots to gain, especially since your credit report won't get any worse for the next five and-a-half years.

Ray

Ray

good for you tara.

See what a little knowledge of law can do for your personal feelings after they've abused you.

BA

Close to $8000, and I have been trying to get them to make payment arrangements, they offer me something of more than I can afford, and I am not offering a small amount either, I am offering $500/month, but they say thats not enough. They have been hostile, threatening, intimidating towards me, I tried to do this the easy way, but they are not making it that way.

Don't make life difficult for yourself. How much do you owe?

Ray

Thank you for your input, I am going to copy and paste the last letter I faxed to them, which was today. They actually are listening to one of my letters, where it says, I do not want any more phone contact, that it will only be done by fax or registered mail.

In the first part of my letter, I said I was considering the offer (which was to pay the amount in full or in 2 different installments of the full amount, which I could do neither, and told them this)

This is my letter to them:

To Whom It May Concern:

I was considering the offer you made, but I remembered I never got a letter from your office AFTER I told you I didn’t receive it, even though it was obvious from your tone that you thought I was lying. According to the Collection Agencies Act R.R.O. 1990, REGULATION 74, in paragraph 21, subsection 4: (4) If a debtor states to a collection agency or collector that the debtor has not received the notice required by subsection (1), the collection agency or collector shall send the notice to the debtor at the address provided by the debtor, and no demand for payment, or other attempt to collect payment, of the debt shall be made before the sixth day after the day the notice is sent. O. Reg. 103/06, s. 2, which you are in direct violation of since I never received a letter from your office. I also stated in a previous letter, that another violation by your office of paragraph 23, subsection 1: (1) No collection agency or collector shall directly or indirectly threaten, or state an intention, to commence a legal proceeding for the collection of a debt, unless the collection agency or collector has the written authority of the creditor to commence the proceeding, and the proceeding is not otherwise prohibited by law. O. Reg. 103/06, s. 2, which I have requested from your office a copy of written authority.

So I will expect no further communication from your office until the following things are done. I receive a letter from your office by regular or registered mail and I receive a copy of the buy-out agreement between your company and the credit card company, and if there was no buy-out agreement, then I want a copy, which is dated from the time that you have threatened legal action against me, of the written authority you have from the credit card company.

Hopefully thats enough to make them crawl back under the rock that they originated from.

I'll take a shot at this but would welcome an Ontario expert to jump in.

I would suggest that if the collector could do all that it says it will do, it would do it without contacting you. I'd also bet dollars to doughnuts that they are huffing and puffing and when you prick their balloon with some law they will crawl back under their rock...

To begin with, I would call the Ontario governemt to ascertain if they are licensed to operate in the province.

I would then spend some time at the web site below which gives you the do's and don't of collectors in Ontario... it is their regulation for the industry and can be found at...

http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/DBLaws/Regs/English/900074_e.htm

Reading that regulation you will see that section 21 requires them to send you a collection notice containing certain information, PRIOR to contacting you in person.

That section also says that they must wait for 7 days to lapse after sending it before calling you.

And here's a tip. It s a favorite ploy of collectors to either backdate notices or wait several days after dating the letter before sending it. KEEP THE ENVELOPE it arrives in as evidence. The post mark on it tells you when they sent it..regardless of the date on the notice itself.

Section 21 also says that when a debtor tells the collector he/she did not receive a notice, collection efforts must stop till the collector sends abnother notice and then waits another 7 days.

It's all written clearly in the law that collectors do not know, or read or care about following generally.

Section 22 (6)(2) says they cannot call you more than 3 times a week.

Section 22 (6) (4) says they cannot use threatening, profane, intimidating or coercive language.

Section 22 (6) (5) says they cannot use undue, excessive or unreasonable pressure.

Section 23 says it cannot threaten legal action unless it allready has written authority from the creditor...and the section also says that it cannot even recomend the creditor take legal action unitl it first advises the debtor that it will be making such a recommendation to the creditor.

Section 24 says that the collector cannot give directly or indirectly and false or misleading information...

And a new section ought to be including saying they cannot impersonate their status as a human being... hehehehe

In the next call I would make sure I got the correct name and spelling of the collector and also his or her collection license number. They are required to give it to you in ALL COMMUNICATIONS WITH YOU.

Once obntained I would write the provincial governemt a complaint about them.

I would also tape the call for evidence. THERE IS NO REQUIREMENT AT LAW FOR YOU TO TELL THE COLLECTOR YOU ARE TAPING HIS CALL.

PERIOD.

This should make you feel a little better I hope.

Cheers, and please bring us an update.

PS, I would also contact the original creditor and make any pmt arrangements with them and refuse to pay the collector..unless they have BOUGHT THE DEBT, in such case they would have been required to give you evidence of such a purchase and a copy of the WRITTEN ASSIGNMENT evidencing the purchase.

Often collectors claim this is the case and often they are just making it up to intimidate you.

BA