Collection Agencies - Collection Group Question - Canada

a good place to talk about links

RE: Collection Group Question

Postby bauer101 » Tue Jul 28, 2009 12:10:22 PM

Hey Ottawa Chap,

Me again! :)

I was just curious - I have two questions to ask you and seeing you are from Ottawa and I am from Ottawa, I appreciate you taking the time to help me.

I should tell you that no progress has been made on this. I had to handle a personal issue and told them...they have taken a step back, which I did appreciate...they have made a bit of contact since, but nothing major.

Question 1/

I was just looking through my documents regarding this issue - I dont have a contract per say... I have a signed 'SUMMARY DIRECTORY ADVERTISING ORDER' which doesn't have much to it; just a rate a some fancy wording at the bottom....would this help my case at all.

Question 2/

a] If they were to take me to court and get a judgement against me would they be able to make me sell my car if it were in both my name and my parents name. (I need co-signers because I own my own biz and therefore claim very little;))

b] How about my house....if it's in my name, my fiancees' name and her parents name, would they be able to force me to sell it??

Just curious.

Thanks and I hope all is well.
bauer101
Member
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Jun 20, 2009 03:15:36 AM
Province: ON


RE: Collection Group Question

Postby Ottawa_Chap » Wed Jun 24, 2009 01:12:12 PM

Haven't done any extensive research on the full process and/or the costs involved, so you may wish to check with the local court in your area and take it from there - alterntevly, poke around on that Rules of Civil Procedure list (1st link in my last post) and see if you can find some of your answers in there. Perhaps pay attention to: RULE 24.1 MANDATORY MEDIATION

You're right, the C/A's mediation dept. is simply someone with another title (of the day). What you'll want is a mediator appointed by the the courts.

Here's another link from an old poster who's discussed the topic before. I also know he's mentioned the process a few other times on this site, too.

/threadview/1431.html

Infuriating one C/A at a time..
Ottawa_Chap
Member
Posts: 603
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 09:03:04 PM
Province: ON


RE: Collection Group Question

Postby bauer101 » Wed Jun 24, 2009 11:39:44 AM

Hey OC,

Great info.

So let me get this straight though. Even if the Ad Group wants to file a lawsuit, there is a mandatory mediation process that is provided by the province??? And, it is mandatory? If it goes to a mediator, are there extra costs incurred or do the costs only incur once mediation has failed and you go to court?

Also, not sure if this counts, but the C/A says that I am talking to their 'Mediation Department', does that count? I wouldn't think so, becuase he works exclusively for the C/A and is only looking out for their best interests....and even at that, I think by the sounds of it, this guys who is the C/As 'mediator' is just another person who works there and is given a fancier title....perhaps you can help out with this.
bauer101
Member
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Jun 20, 2009 03:15:36 AM
Province: ON


RE: Collection Group Question

Postby Ottawa_Chap » Wed Jun 24, 2009 10:31:41 AM

Bauer,

Another aspect to keep in mind regarding the Ad agency pursuing the legal avenue pertains to the Mandatory Mediation process. As outlined below, both parties would explain their position to a mediator who would then help them to arrive at a workable solution. Should that fail, then it's onto Pre-Trial, then Trial.

If you'd ready for an extremely comprehensive read on the Courts of Justice Act, click the 1st link. The 2nd link takes you to the Mediation Process I've copied below.

http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/regs/english/elaws_regs_900194_e.htm#sched24.1.01

http://www.attorneygeneral.jus.gov.on.ca/english/courts/manmed/notice.asp

What is mediation?
Mediation is one way for people to settle disputes or lawsuits outside of court. In mediation, a neutral third party - the mediator - helps the disputing parties look for a solution that works for them.

Mediators, unlike judges, do not decide cases or impose settlements. The mediator's role is to help the people involved in a dispute to communicate and negotiate with each other in a constructive manner, to gain a better understanding of the interests of all parties, and to find a resolution based on common understanding and mutual agreement.

The purpose of mediation is not to determine who wins and who loses, but to develop creative solutions to disputes in a way that is not possible at a trial.

What is the Ontario Mandatory Mediation Program?
The Ontario Mandatory Mediation Program started on January 4, 1999 in Toronto and Ottawa, and in Windsor on December 31, 2002. The Program is designed to help parties involved in civil litigation and estates matters attempt to settle their cases before they get to trial, thereby saving both time and money.

Many parties negotiate during the course of litigation. Over 90 percent of all lawsuits settle before getting to the trial stage. Under the Ontario Mandatory Mediation Program, cases are referred to a mediation session early in the litigation process to give parties an opportunity to discuss the issues in dispute. With the assistance of a trained mediator, the parties explore settlement options and may be able to avoid the pretrial and trial process.

Under Rule 24.1, civil actions that are subject to case management are referred to mandatory mediation. Case management is a system in which the court supervises cases and imposes strict timelines on their movement through the pretrial and trial process. Certain civil actions, such as family law cases, are excluded from mandatory mediation. Under Rule 75.1, contested estates, trusts and substitute decisions matters are referred to mandatory mediation.

What are the benefits of mediation?
Mediation often leads to resolutions that are tailored to the needs of all parties. Generally, the best solution to a problem is one worked out by the parties themselves.

Many people find mediation more satisfying than a trial because they play an active role in resolving their dispute, rather than having a solution determined by a judge.

The mediation process is informal and completely confidential. Parties in mediation may speak more openly than in court. Many people find mediation a more comfortable and constructive process than a trial.

In situations where the parties have an ongoing relationship, mediation is particularly helpful because it promotes cooperative problem-solving and improved communications.

How does Rule 24.1 work?
Civil, case-managed actions (except family cases) that are defended are referred to mediation. Cases may be exempted only if the parties obtain a court order.

The mediation is conducted by a private-sector mediator. Parties may agree to select a mediator from the Program's roster of mediators or one who is not on the roster. This decision must be made within 30 days after the first defence is filed.

If the parties cannot agree on a mediator, one will be appointed for them by the Local Mediation Coordinator, who is responsible for administering the Program.

The mediation must take place within 90 days after the first defence is filed, unless the court orders otherwise. However, parties in a standard track action may agree to postpone the mediation for an additional 60 days by filing a consent with the Local Mediation Coordinator.

At least 7 days before the mediation, parties must provide the mediator and the other parties to the lawsuit with a Statement of Issues, which identifies the issues in dispute and the parties' positions and interests. The pleadings and any documents of central importance to the case must be included.
Infuriating one C/A at a time..
Ottawa_Chap
Member
Posts: 603
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 09:03:04 PM
Province: ON


RE: Collection Group Question

Postby Ottawa_Chap » Wed Jun 24, 2009 04:27:50 AM

The letter that you received was most likely a standard form letter sent from either their in-house attorney, or one that is paid a fee for the use of his/her letterhead and signture. Common scare tactic which indicates the C/A is geting frustrated. I've seen these letters several times in the past, and their threats ended at just that; threats.

It's your own personal call on how long you choose to drag this out for. If you speak with anyone again, perhaps remind them of your original 2k + bal/24mos offer so that they know your position hasn't changed. I subscribe to the "If there is no happy median, let them come to you" theory. If you start upping your offer to soon or to quickly, my guess it that they'll wait you out. Paitence is paramount when trying to achieve your target.
Infuriating one C/A at a time..
Ottawa_Chap
Member
Posts: 603
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 09:03:04 PM
Province: ON


RE: Collection Group Question

Postby bauer101 » Mon Jun 22, 2009 09:47:52 PM

Ya, I read the enforcement page and I now see it is tough to do this. That said, I want to pay as much of it (the settlement) off as possible, I just want that settlement to be as low as possible.

I have received a letter from a 'lawyer' (that was delivered to my friends old house, he passed it along to me), BUT upon checking into it, the letterhead of the lawyer is clearly a fake and I called the number for the lawyer, and it led right to the collection agencies main number LOL. The law firm is real, but it's for a family lawyer and my hunch is that the lawyer lets this agency use his name in exchange for compensation.

That said, would you think that if I passed on this deal, that they would make another offer? Even if they were to pursue this, I am sure they would make a last ditch effort to settle...the question is, when will they actually make there last offer.....apparently every day 'the time is ticking' according to them LOL....

Should I wait it out.....see how much lower they will go....25% interest free isn't that bad....I wonder how low they will go.

bauer101
Member
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Jun 20, 2009 03:15:36 AM
Province: ON


RE: Collection Group Question

Postby Ottawa_Chap » Mon Jun 22, 2009 02:47:28 PM

Bauer,

My gut feeling is that these guys have no interest in taking the matter to court. I say this because chances are, if they wanted to they probably would have done so by now – waiting until 17mos into the default adds additional risks – and by the sounds of it, they might not even know where to serve (deliver) a [your] ‘notice to appear’? Again, one would need to validate whether or not a written acknowledgement of the debt via email would renew the limitation period (I’ve started to search for the answer online, but nothing yet – perhaps you can see if there’s a community legal group/forum in your area and ask there too). If the answer is yes, then time is most likely on their side once again; though I would imagine that they’re probably sick of seeing this overdue account on their books, and thus, keep 'working' you to pay it off.

Have you read over this link (or the Canlaw link) yet?

6.4 - Enforcement Introduction
http://www.attorneygeneral.jus.gov.on.ca/english/about/pubs/cjr/suppreport/ch64a.asp

Once you do, you’ll see why obtaining a judgment is only half the battle. The second phase is collecting on the judgment, and that can take even more time and energy; hence an added pain in the rear. Are you starting to obtain a clearer picture on why the court option is less then favorable for the plaintiff as well?
Infuriating one C/A at a time..
Ottawa_Chap
Member
Posts: 603
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 09:03:04 PM
Province: ON


RE: Collection Group Question

Postby bauer101 » Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:36:41 PM

DO you believe that they will wait as long as possible to pursue legal action? It seems as though they do want to settle this. They have already moved on their price twice and they know I want to pay, but I told them that I really have no means of getting them one lump.

I dont think that they want to go to court, and I did a search in the CanLII database and couldn't find a lawsuit against a person for not paying and I am sure I am not the first person to not pay them LOL. This company is big, actually very well known. Then again, I don't know if they list everything on the CANLII site, so it might not be the best reference point...

To answer your question of the way the bill works. I took out the ad and it started running in January 2008. They would send a bill every 30 days for the balance owing. They haven't received a payment....so when does there statue of limitations come to an end. I have made emails to them with assorted ideas and offers...perhaps that extends there statute.

A friend of mine told me back in March when I got the letter, not to acknowledge it....but I just didn't see it magically going away???

I just dont want to have a judgement against me, but I am prepared to play the 'game' as I get the impression that they really dont want to go to court. They pretty much have an open and close case against me, so why would they want to settle for 25-35% less??? It's not like they are worried they might lose....

I just don't get it.

bauer101
Member
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Jun 20, 2009 03:15:36 AM
Province: ON


RE: Collection Group Question

Postby Ottawa_Chap » Sun Jun 21, 2009 11:07:59 PM

You've indicated that you were not happy with the services received, so I understand why you are seeking a discount of sorts. Although I've yet to go through the settlement process, it's my understanding that the best way to obtain a reduced settlement would be to convince the C/A (hence, creditor) that you are cash strapped and have no means to cover the full costs (keep in mind the equity in your home).

That said, they've seen/heard your proposal, so they know you want to pay, but they're going to play the 'game', too. You'll receive threats, demands, denials on your offers, etc., that's all part of the process. You may just have to wait this out a little longer. As I indicated earlier, once you get near the point where the limitation period is almost up, you'll start seeing the percentage drop - but ultimately the advertising agency is going to have the final say on how low that percentage goes to, as it's their money. You want 50%, well keep in mind that the advertising agency may not be happy with only receiving ~35% of the original bill (forget that added interest and remember the C/A is taking their cut). This is why I suggested dealing with the advertising agency directly.

With respect to your house, well it doesn't take much for the advertising agency or C/A to have a paralegal run a property search to see if you own a house. Heck, if you have a mortgage, that's probably listed on your credit report - along with your address. If that's the case, then I'm surprised you haven't received any mailings, yet.

Sorry, there is no blanket time frame that C/A's accept for settlement terms, but I do know they prefer receiving their cash in the shortest time frame possible. I would imagine that the advertising agency would feel the same way. Offer: I'll give you $5k now, or 7.5k over 24 months. They'd be wise to take the 5k now as they don't know if they'll ever see any more then a few payments? That said, if you defaulted along the way, they'll have to go through the process of obtaining a judgment and then collecting on it. A bit of a headache for the extra $2500 - they can't go after their labour costs, only certain legal/filing related fees. Note: After you make a payment on any settlement offer right now (because you haven’t yet exceeded the Statute of Limitations), they’ll have another 2yrs after your last payment to collect on any defaulted amount. I wouldn’t think that they’d be able to turn around and try to tack on the difference prior to settlement, but I don’t have a link to confirm this theory.

BTW: I reviewed the Canlaw link and noticed that it was geared for New Brunswick. Oops... These links are for Ontario. They are more then a summary but do provide a detailed explanation on the civil-suit process, and, collecting on judgments. I only quickly skimmed over them after my previous post to you; found them to be quite thorough.

Civil Cases – Suing and Being Sued
http://www.attorneygeneral.jus.gov.on.ca/english/courts/civil/civilcases-TOC.asp

6.4 - Enforcement Introduction
http://www.attorneygeneral.jus.gov.on.ca/english/about/pubs/cjr/suppreport/ch64a.asp

Perhaps the reason you haven't noticed anything on your bureau files is exactly for the reasons you've stated. Did the address you and your friend live at appear on them? If so, then my curiosity is peeked. Could be many reasons, but I don't have the answer.
Infuriating one C/A at a time..
Ottawa_Chap
Member
Posts: 603
Joined: Thu Jun 26, 2008 09:03:04 PM
Province: ON


RE: Collection Group Question

Postby bauer101 » Sun Jun 21, 2009 09:55:09 PM

I do just want to pay this. I just want to settle for the lowest amount possible. Right now I have got the debt down 25%....what do you think the lowest amount would be for a debt of this magnitude....I have heard of debts being settled for 50% of the amount owing. Also, if I agree to a settlement offer and then make a bunch of payments, if I was to breach this settlement offer, could they come after me for the entire amount less what I have paid?

Another question was do Collection agents often accept monthly payment of 12-24 months? Is this out of the realm of possibility or is it something that happens often?

Lastly, i just looked at my credit report (on both Equifax and TransUnion)...this debt is not on listed on it....is there a reason? Is it because they dont have enough information about me ( I never gave them my birthday, SIN number, DL # and the address they have on file is a friends address that I was staying at when I signed the contract....he doesn't even live there anymore, nor do I) - I never have received ANYTHING at my current house - NOTHING at all....the only reason I know about the debt is because they have my phone number and just before my friend moved out, they sent a letter addressed to that old address and to my name - he gave it to me.

are they allowed to report to the bureau yet?? How does this work?

bauer101
Member
Posts: 8
Joined: Sat Jun 20, 2009 03:15:36 AM
Province: ON


,

Return to Collection Agencies - Discussion Area