Richard - I don't want them to stop calling now that they are using live persons rather than their autodialler. I find it therapeutic (I have had a great deal of amusement at their expense). Moreover I have only recently begun logging and recording calls, and I would like to build a substantial list of offences (and, hopefully, gather the names of as many employees involved as possible). I hope to build a good, long list and record plenty of incriminating statements by their agents, who appear to be completely unfamiliar with the Credit Collection Act and are easily lured into making statements that demonstrate a contemptuous disregard for its provisions.

My goal is not to get them off my back. It is past SOL and there is nothing they can do, even if the claim were not fraudulent. My goal is to punish. Many people are frightened by them and I believe many may have been tricked into parting with money they did not owe. This is theft by fraud, harassment and intimidation. Backing off is not enough. If I scared a burgler out of my house without anything having been stolen, I would not forget the incident, even if I was sure he would not be coming back to my home. I have a social duty to see the burgler is discouraged from harming other citizens, by applying the law against him.

I want to achieve maximum expense and frustration for them while I am building my logs, recordings, and other documentations of their actions. I suppose you are correct about the environmental angle of the faxes, so I will seek other means. Is their ombudsman well-paid? I also noticed you had posted the number for an office of one of their legal team earlier, I will be sure to follow up every call with a protest to him. I am sure his time is costly.

Most importantly I would like to know how credit collection agencies may be charged with telemarketing fraud and what sort of documentation would be required. Who is to say they are not merely entering false information into their database? What prevents them from doing that? "Oooops, sorry, we will stop" isn't good enough if that has happened. They should be investigated for fraud.

If they have reported to Equifax or any other credit bureau without possessing documentation, removing the report is nice, but it would go worse for them if they did not remove it before I sue them for libel. I will be sure to mention this briefly to a low-level and probably inattentive agent, as it will demonstrate they persisted in negligent conduct even after it was brought to their attention. This will look bad in court, too. In Canada, libel is one of the few torts where damages do not have to be shown for awards to be made, damage is assumed (unlike slander). I imagine making such a report without possessing full documentation of the bank account in question, ie copies of bank statements, copies of the contracts I signed to open the account and so on, will very easily qualify as libel; the negligent standard of care is obvious. It will look good for them if they have corrected it before then, it will show they have willingly attempted to correct their actions, and will be taken into consideration when damages are awarded. I wish to be awarded all damages due. I have heard they call neighbours and family members sometimes too, that will make a good case for slander as well but I think they may already be "on" to me a little and are being more cautious.

I am going to eat these sobs for breakfast, and when they have finally realized I am not as weak as I have led them to believe, I will come after them for their actions, and obtain money from them for damages.

Credit collection agencies are of course necessary, people should always pay their debt. But when credit collection agencies become telemarketing scams to swindle people who do not have debts, they should be dismantled.

Edge,

Here’s my suggestion.

You are clearly familiar with the Ontario collection agencies act. Why not register a letter to the agency telling them you dispute the debt and recommend they take you to court on the matter. It’s in the act, calls have to stop. You can also contact Equifax and dispute the matter.

Faxing them paper with white text on a black background will do nothing; it will just end up in the garbage and take out a few tree’s in the process.

Re Joe's suggestion,

I like you, but trust me, collection agencies are already on the radar screen and have been for a very long time. They are a needed evil that won't change.

I think this site would be perfect to go after collection agencies and their unfair practices. If Monty could set up something that people could sign privately and Monty could verify each individual complaint is real, maybe we can send a formal complaint with at least 1000 names to the proper gov’t agency complaining that xyz collection agency or all collection agencies in general are breaking the law. If a list of 1000 for an example was brought to the government’s attention; I’m sure the government would investigate and it would get the collection agencies attention especially if the newspapers and the news media got wind of it. I believe having Monty as our spokesperson on this matter is an asset and it would bring positive exposure to the site.

It's a good idea to complain... if for nothing more than it creates stats at the consumer protection department.

First off... if you complain... the collection agency has to answer..

But it also creates the stats that says..."we're having x number of problems with this collection agency." this helps them set regulations in the future.

Also, by complaining.. you'll get a stronger understanding of the law, and what the collection agencies are required to do.

The complaint is a waste of time and it will get swept under the rug. The only way these collection agencies will get the message is for people to take action against them, till then they will still break the law. These departments are a joke, just the like the department in my area when I had a complaint. The RCMP has their hands full and till someone is willing to come forward with some proof, the RCMP will just their sorry they cannot help.

It is not worth it to hire a lawyer, it would be cheaper to just pay them off to quit. It is also likely that they will simply cut their losses and back off. This is not what I want to achieve. I want to make their actions as fruitless, time-consuming and expensive for them as possible, at the lowest possible cost to myself. I will enjoy the exercise, so time and frustration are not concerns. I wish to draw this out as long as possible and incur maximum costs for them in retaliation for violating my legal guarantees as a consumer and citizen. I do plan to make appropriate complaints to the authorities as well (eg Brian Pitkin, OPP and RCMP fraud divisions, and the CRTC), but only as a formality - the law will not be enforced, but it is necessary to be able to show that I made the complaint and alerted the authorities before enforcing my rights myself.

I understand your frustration and the best thing for you to do is hire a lawyer. I am aware that collection agencies are always breaking the laws and the law doesn't seem to care. I believe you have a case, and your assessment on collection agencies fabricating claims is possibly true. I believe the economy is hurting the collection agencies and they are trying anything to get money out of people.

The debt is BS because it is impossible. They claim an account closed with a negative balance a little over $1000. The account had no overdraft, and I was on OW at the time, getting monthly cheques for $520. OW cheques cannot bounce, and even if they could, cheques clear in 2 weeks or so, so that it would be impossible for two to bounce. No other monies ever went into that account, and I never wrote any cheques from it. Also, because I was on OW, when I closed the account I had to get a certificate from the bank to show to my worker, to verify the account was actually closed. I would certainly remember if it showed a negative balance of any sort. TD never contacted me about the account - despite the fact I held a new, joint account with them for 3 or 4 years afterwards.

They have my correct address for that period, but they had the wrong birthdate and did not possess my SIN number. I am suspicious they are simply amassing personal information and fabricating fraudulent debts with a date that is too long ago for most people to be able to verify. Harassment is then used to intimidate the victim and extort the fraudulent claim.

Laws broken:

Their autodialler persistantly called me with a message that did not identify the caller, and did not provide a mailing address. Furthermore, I did not receive any letter from them prior to be contacted by telephone. Nor was a toll-free number provided; it was long distance. This is in contravention of the following:

TELECOMMUNICATIONS ACT

Canadian Radio-television and Telecommunications Commission (CRTC)

Unsolicited Telecommunications Rules

Part IV: Automatic Dialing-Announcing Device (ADAD) Rules

1. The ADAD Rules apply whether or not the telemarketing telecommunication is exempt from the National DNCL Rules.

4. A person using an ADAD to make unsolicited telecommunications where there is no attempt to solicit, shall comply with the following conditions:

(b) subject to paragraph (c), such telecommunications are restricted to 9:00 a.m. to 9:30 p.m. on weekdays (Monday to Friday) and 10:00 a.m. to 6:00 p.m. on weekends (Saturday and Sunday); the hours refer to those of the person receiving the telecommunication;

(c) such telecommunications are restricted to the hours set out in or pursuant to provincial legislation that governs an activity where the hours set out in the provincial legislation are more restrictive than those set out in paragraph (b), provided that the telecommunication is made for the purpose of that activity. The hours refer to those of the person receiving the telecommunication;

(d) such telecommunications shall begin with a clear message identifying the person on whose behalf the telecommunication is made. This identification message shall include a mailing address and a local or toll-free telecommunications number at which a representative of the originator of the message can be reached. In the event that the actual message relayed exceeds sixty (60) seconds, the identification message shall be repeated at the end of the telecommunication.

COLLECTION AGENCIES ACT

Prohibited Practices and Methods in the Collection of Debts

21. (1) No collection agency or collector shall demand payment, or otherwise attempt to collect payment, of a debt from a debtor unless the collection agency or collector has sent the debtor, by ordinary mail, a private written notice setting out the following information:

1. The name of the creditor to whom the debt is owed.

2. The balance owing on the debt.

3. The identity of the collection agency or collector who is demanding payment of the debt.

4. The authority of the collection agency or collector to demand payment of the debt. O. Reg. 103/06, s. 2.

(2) No collection agency or collector shall make a telephone call to or a personal call on the debtor before the sixth day after mailing the written notice required by subsection (1). O. Reg. 103/06, s. 2.

(4) If a debtor states to a collection agency or collector that the debtor has not received the notice required by subsection (1), the collection agency or collector shall send the notice to the debtor at the address provided by the debtor, and no demand for payment, or other attempt to collect payment, of the debt shall be made before the sixth day after the day the notice is sent.

Since I have not received any written notice, they have no lawful excuse to persistently call, which puts them in contravention of the following:

CRIMINAL CODE

372. (3) Every one who, without lawful excuse and with intent to harass any person, makes or causes to be made repeated telephone calls to that person is guilty of an offence punishable on summary conviction.

Additionally, if they fabricated the debt, they would run afoul of criminal fraud laws too.

Last night I got a live caller, and informed her that telephone calls were illegal until I had received written notice. According to section 21 subsection 4 of the Collection Agencies Act (I am in Ontario), this means that there can be no more calls until 6 days have passed from the time I was called. At 8:58pm they called again.

I know it is pointless to get patronage cronies like Brian Pitkin to enforce the law, so I am seeking alternate means of achieving compliance, within the law - such as sending 10 page faxes outlining all the applicable laws and my logs of their actions, white text on black background, every time they call. One to Iqor and another to Debbie Bilowus, their ombudsman.

The debt must exist; maybe they have the wrong person. If you give them certain information to verify you’re not that person, they will stop calling you.

Why is the debt "BS" and what laws have they broken when calling you?