Collection Agencies - Repo question? - Canada

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RE: Repo question?

Postby nameuser » Sat Jan 10, 2009 06:29:54 PM

As far as criminal charges for theft...not going to happen. Especially if you are willing to make arrangements with the creditor to repay. They would have to show intent on your part to steal from them and get the police involved, this would happen in the case of a $150,000 mortgage on a property that does not exist (which is fraud btw) but it wouldn't happen in your situation and people should not have suggested it as a possible scenario. There is an extremely small chance of being charged criminally for an outstanding loan that does not involve fraud in some manner.
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RE: Repo question?

Postby nameuser » Sat Jan 10, 2009 06:26:34 PM

How much do you still owe on the loan and is it a bank or high risk lender that is owed here?
A repo will cost the creditor at least $400, but if you are in a remote location the price gets really high. The bailiff will almost always be told when seizing a unit to tell the creditor if the equity warrants pickup, meaning "are we going to get some or most of our money if we auction this?"
If you just have parts sitting there then they would not get a flatbed truck and tow it to auction off parts. They would most likely tell the creditor there is not enough equity or tell them that the costs will be high.

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RE: Repo question?

Postby hrlydvdn » Sat Jan 10, 2009 04:55:18 PM

They still have not come for it yet. Buy I am still worried that I may be charged for theft of some sort. I have paid more than half for it but I needed the money from the parts to pay for lawyer fees in a family court dispute. It was either sell what parts I could for cash and fight for my kids or keep the parts and loose access to see my children. I am really hoping that they dont charge because that would give my ex more ideas to battle over in court.
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RE: Repo question?

Postby Bill K. Lecter » Thu Jan 08, 2009 11:37:29 AM

If they repossess (what is left of) the bike, they will likely sell it at public auction. Your outstanding balance will be reduced by the sale proceeds (less the cost of repossession and any amounts used to prepare it for sale, as well as the auction fee). You will be responsible for the remainder (the deficiency or net loss).
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RE: Repo question?

Postby Raymond » Tue Dec 16, 2008 09:07:58 PM

My guess is they won't but it's a bit of an unusual situation. It might be that the finance company has contingent insurance to cover circumstances where the vehicle suffers what otherwise would be an uninsured (intentional) loss and then subrogates (sues) the vehicle buyer for damages. But I don't know if that's the case here or if there's enough owing on it for that to be likely.

Practically speaking, they have to find the bike to repossess it. And if they can't find it, I suppose they can't find out it's been scavenged for parts. I'm not suggesting you "stage" something and falsely report it because that's criminal mischief; but if there's somewhere you can store it off premises, you wouldn't have to say anything until when and if you got taken to Small Claims Court for damages.

Whether your actions would have any criminal as opposed to civil consequences might also depend somewhat on the materiality of the amount involved. Nonetheless (legally speaking), the fact remains that you had an obligation to maintain and preserve the property as long as the lender had an interest in it.

Unfortunately, you knowingly, through a series of acts, deprived them of that right. It's almost tantamount to a "fraudulent conveyance" although that's a legal term used in bankruptcy. Look at it this way: if you had tried to sell the bike outright, you would have been prevented from doing so because of the registered lien. However, if you've sold 50% of it (or something like the engine and wheels), that's effectively equivalent to selling most of the asset without the lienholder's knowledge.

Honestly, for such a situation, you need more qualified advice than what you'll find on an internet blog. There's a big difference from someone who's well read and a professional working in the field.

A guy like Mark Silverthorn would be ideal for this sort of thing because he's also practiced criminal law and he operates a help blog on his website. However, I think he'll want a bit of money before giving any substantial advice.

In any event, I wouldn't leave the bike lying around where the bailiff can find it until you ascertain if there are any consequences to this other than civil. In other words, keep what's left of the bike out of sight, chained up and in a locked garage.

Sorry, but I don't want to start giving advice beyond my expertise.

Ray

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RE: Repo question?

Postby hrlydvdn » Tue Dec 16, 2008 08:16:06 PM

Thank you Raymond for responding to my post. I am not sure how to take your reply. Will I be charged for some sort of theft? I was not maliously trying to get out of paying for the bike, I still want to make payments but they are refusing. Is there someone I can contact to help me?
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RE: Repo question?

Postby Raymond » Tue Dec 16, 2008 08:15:47 PM

Some provinces like BC have a "Seize or Sue" clause in their PPSA (Personal Property Security Act). That means a creditor can choose to sue OR seize a vehicle but NOT both. (Personal property should not be confused with real [estate] property which is dealt with in the Land Titles Act.)

However, Ontario does NOT have such a clause in its PPSA. That means a creditor can still recover its shortfall in this province but the remedies are more limited if you've paid in excess of 60% of the loan. Recent ammendments to Ontario's Act in 2007 provide a 30 day election period under Section 65(1),6), S67 etc. for the creditor to sue for shortfalls under certain conditions. Here's the whole Ontario PPSA below for reference - but don't bother reading it; it'll only give you a headache.

http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws_statutes_90p10_e.htm#BK71

Nonetheless, all this is moot because there is no longer a vehicle to seize; only remnants of one from what you describe. Moreover, the issue of you substantially selling off the bike piece by piece might be seen by the courts as illegally circumventing or obstructing a lien (security interest). How or if that might be practically enforced is a question for a lawyer or at least a bankruptcy or insolvency office. I'm sure it's been done before but I'm not familiar with it. Time to seek serious advice from one of these guys.

Ray
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Repo question?

Postby hrlydvdn » Tue Dec 16, 2008 02:55:34 PM

Sorry if i am not posting in the right section. My question is this, I bought a motorcycle in 04 and had to finance half the balance. 3 years ago I split with the wife and blew my savings on lawyers and had to sell off parts of the bike to help pay the lawyer fees. Now they are going to repo the bike which there isnt much left of it. I want to pay off the bank but i just dont have the cash right now. When they pick up the bike can they charge me for theft or something of that sort? They title is in my name only. I really didn't want to take it apart but I had no choice. I needed to fight for my kids. Any comments?
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